We were chatting in the kitchen, and Daskalos said, “Let me tell you what every psychologist should know.” He then started walking toward the living room. I followed him and turned on a tape recorder as he began. This was the last day of my visit.

Daskalos: When we are coming to the world to live, we pass from the supersubstance of mind, formless mind, and we get some of that mind, formless but most powerful. ‘Tis the first material to create what we call mental body. Lower vibrations of mind give what we call the psychical body, and still more rare [dense?] vibrations are giving us our material body. So everything is mind. Matter is mind. It is only the rate of vibrations [that are different]. But we are not mind. We use mind. Our ego or soul, call it whatever you like, or spirit self, has the characteristics of self-knowledge. These are the characteristics of soul, [of] the Absolute Beingness, of God. Self-knowledge. But to express that self-knowledge, we need mind. God to express Himself created mind from Himself to express Himself. We find two conditions, the static, which is the Absolute Beingness in its self-abundance and what I will call the super wisdom motion which expresses now the Absolute Beingness self-willingness to express Himself. It is not desire [for expression]. It is a divine state. It creates vibrations.

So we have the two states of things: self-abundance and self expression. For the [purpose of] self-expression is created mind in all the rates of vibration. What are we as ego? We are God. As a soul, we are an expression. So the ego self, passing through the Idea of Man, which is (in?) the super wisdom of the Infinite, where are the World of Ideas, becomes a soul. Which is the difference between the soul and the ego spirit?

Bob: In one sense there is no difference.

Daskalos: There is a difference.

Bob: The soul has the bodies, the three bodies.

Daskalos: Yes, but before that. Which is the difference?

Bob: The soul is human, and the ego spirit is before human.

Daskalos: Why divide it in this way? I will tell you. I have the sun and the light of the sun passing through space. Then, I open the window, and the light passes through the window. The light passing through the window, from the window, giving the form of the window on the floor, is the soul. But the light from the window to the floor and the light from the window to the sun is the same. So the soul is the same with the ego spirit. But now, it gets a form: the human existence, the human expression. So the soul is giving the human form expression.

Bob: Is the ego spirit what they used to call the over-soul?

Daskalos: The over-self is the spirit ego.

Bob: The ego spirit?

Daskalos: The ego spirit is the over-self. Now what are the characteristics of the over-self [that distinguish it] from the self? Qualitative – no difference, quantitative, yes. So once the soul dresses herself, let us say [it] like that, with mind as mental body, it makes mind part of herself. So, mind in its essence has the (over?) wisdom of God, of the Infinite. So we see a man born with mental body, psychical body, and the material body. Now, the self-consciousness of man using mind creates images, idols, elementals. The sum total of the elementals is our present-day personality. So, what is now our present-day personality? What are the characteristics of these elementals? The ability to impress, that is why we call it, “impressive” ether, the ether [with which] we make visualization. The characteristic is that whatever it draws, to keep it. So that part of your mental body, the body of experiences, has a kind of its own knowing, knowledge. This part is in the present-day personality, but when I say present-day personality I don’t mean only the etheric double of the material body. I mean also the etheric double of the psychic body and the etheric double of the mental body because the combination of that is what I call present-day personality.

So that sum of human, now, mind is the superconscious, the consciousness and the subconsciousness. So there is only one mind. The same way we say this building has the underground, the first floor and the upper floor, but it is this building. What enriches the subconsciousness? The consciousness. So anything we are aware of and comes to our consciousness is taught in our subconsciousness. And so we can draw from our subconsciousness any moment we like memory, remembering, all those things which have been stored in it. So, if we call an ocean consciousness, subconsciousness is below the surface of the sea. So, the present day consciousness [which] we have is one thousandth of our subconsciousness. So, we as souls, as existences, as divers, can either swim on the surface or dive in the bottom of the ocean. It is the same water. It is the ocean. So it is one consciousness, whether I call it subconsciousness, consciousness or superconsciousness. Superconsciousness is when I know and I get impressions from many places at the same time. This is the difference between superconsciousness from consciousness. Subconsciousness, our subconsciousness, has a kind of its own life, its own consciousness, that’s what we call subconsciousness. I have one coin with two sides. That’s mind. One is consciousness, and the other is subconsciousness. But it is one coin only. Can I go from one side to the other? Yes of course – through what I call memory, remembering, or bringing to the surface from the bottom of my existence old experiences. Now, subconsciousness is, I would say the wisdom of the consciousness. Now, as long as we live in our material world, and you say consciously, do we live consciously or subconsciously consciously?

Bob: Subconsciously consciously.

Daskalos: How? You are a baby. I teach you how to walk. You didn’t know how to walk. You had made (good?) endeavors to it. You learned how to walk. So, in your waking consciousness, you walk subconsciously. You understand what I mean? No need to pay attention to every step you are making and how you are walking. The subconsciousness comes to the consciousness and you walk. The same thing in swimming. You learn to swim as you have learned to swim. You swim subconsciously consciously. You are conscious of swimming. But yet knowing to swim is from the subconsciousness. So we can see that subconsciousness and consciousness are linked together and influence the one the other so whether you say subconsciousness or consciousness, it’s the mind. It’s the essence, the energy and the characteristics of the mind — of our mental, psychic and material bodies.

So, every psychologist should know this: what is the soul, what is mind, where is the mind, wherefrom we get the mental images, the mental idols, those (holy?) elementals. From the formless supersubstance. So, we have defined now subconsciousness.

Bob: Is this formless supersubstance ether?

Daskalos: Ether is one on the characteristics of this supersubstance, it’s mind. But even ether is mind, electricity is mind, the matter is mind.

Bob: How does a person go beyond mind?

Daskalos: I tell you, when you advance, and in the course of time you become master of the material body, master of the matter around you, you control your emotions, your desires, your expressions in life and you are master of them, through mind again, that means through thinking, thinking means using the mind, and then you become master of your thoughts, you can know what you are thinking about, you can change thoughts, you can take decisions, that means through better quality of the mind you can convert lower vibrations of the mind, you find yourself that I am not the emotions and I am not the mind, since I can change them, I can use them, I can replace them. Who am I then?

Then you find yourself. You are you, the ego, formless, yet most powerful. God un-manifested but who can manifest Itself anytime He likes. So, now we find certain qualities of our ego, which is will power, what people use as will power is obstinacy and not will power, because will power governs thought while obstinacy it is a colored, temporary in time and space, will, colored by emotions.

So the psychologist must learn to analyze everything, his thoughts, his expressions, his abilities – how to think, and all that. Then he will find himself as a soul in himself as an ego-spirit. When he finds that, he knows who he is. This should be the aim of psychology.

Now, what is psychology today? Psychology is just study certain behavior of man, take it as cause when it isn’t cause, [when] it is an effect of other causes, and by that start to know more effects. That means, the present-day psychologist is not standing on solid ground. He thinks he is doing it, yet he cannot have the effects as causes for further effects. He should get in the root of the causes.

Bob: And the root of the causes is?

Daskalos: Knowing everything, what it is. Knowing the Absolute Beingness, knowing yourself, knowing, knowing. That is the (end?). Can we know easily all these things? Now, life is a thousand-sided diamond. You can learn all the sides of that diamond. So day and night you may study and yet, you’ll say as the old Greek philosopher ( ), “One thing I know, that I know nothing.”

Well, I had a fellow [who saw me]. He was studying for years and years. He said, “Look here, you’re making me naked. What am I now? You took me off my body, my emotions, my thoughts and I see a self you present me formless, non-existing.”

And I said, “Yes, but that’s you and that’s you as God and powerful, who can take any form at will. You took already form at will.”

“No, no, no, I’m afraid of that nothingness.” [he said].

I said, “That is not nothingness. It’s everything. But don’t make comparison with known things and try to understand with three-dimensional things yourself. There are rather deep waters to swim or [in which] to dive, yet we have to dive boldly to find ourselves.”